Ahead of the League One play-off final against Wycombe Wanderers, we caught up with Gordon Armstrong, a man who has played at Wembley twice in his 416 Sunderland appearances.
We’ve won twice at Wembley in Gordon Armstrong's lifetime. He was five the first time, sitting around a colour TV in Newcastle as Bob Stokoe's Sunderland lifted the F.A. Cup. The second time, Armstrong would again be watching on TV, as Sunderland lifted the less prestigious Papa John's Trophy through a solitary Lynden Gooch goal in an eerily empty Wembley.
Asked about his experiences at Wembley Gordon replied 'All misery'. Despite this, he still has faint memories of that famous triumph (not 2019's).
"I can remember 73. I remember being in some front room in Newcastle. Somebody had a colour television and we were jumping up and down when we scored, beer went everywhere! I don't think it was a common occurrence for people to have colour TVs then. My dad went down but I must have been about 5 or 6 at the time so I didn't."
It would be 1985 before a 16 year old Gordon would get his first taste of Wembley, travelling down to the capital with the first team, not long after signing his professional papers.
"In the Milk Cup final they actually put on a competition between Norwich youth team and Sunderland's to run round the track. You had to run and jump over cows and nutmeg a chicken, things like that because it was obviously the Milk Cup final. We even managed to lose that so it wasn't a great day to be honest. It wasn't a great game. Unfortunately my mate Davey Corner always gets mentioned with it. It was a big deflection as well off Chizzy (Gordon Chisholm). We were a bit unlucky and we missed a penner as well. That was disappointing."
Gordon experienced play-off heartbreak five years later in 1990. After overcoming Newcastle in a memorable semi final second leg at St James's, Swindon awaited at Wembley, with promotion to the top flight on the line. Gordon recollects the day:
"It was very, very hot. We played them twice that season , I think we'd won one and drew one and we thought we had the beating of them, but they came up with a new system that nobody played then with a sweeper I think and three in midfield. They sort of outran us to be fair. We didn't have a clue what we were doing and they absolutely battered us, were it not for Tony Norman it could probably have been 5-0. That wasn't a good day either."
Despite underperforming and the disappointment of losing in a play-off final, Sunderland were promoted anyway due to Swindon's financial regularities. Gordon was on holiday when he heard the news.
"I was with my missus in Ibiza when I found out, obviously no mobiles then so she had rang home and she told me. When I found out, I was on the beach, which was lovely. We did get told after the first leg, Gordon McKeag who was Newcastle's chairman had said to a few of their players that if they had won that game (against us), they were guaranteed to go up. We didn't totally believe that but that didn't excuse the way we played in the final, we played crap but it turned out nicely anyway."
In 1992, Gordon was instrumental in getting the Lads into the Cup Final, with an iconic header against Chelsea in the Quarter Final securing a semi final at Hillsborough.
"Obviously it was a great run getting there, fantastic times, there were some great games along the way. The one against Chelsea was amazing and to score the winner that was brilliant. Obviously we went to Hillsborough and Sunderland fans took over the ground, probably not quite as much as it will be against Wycombe but we had two thirds of the ground anyway I'd say. It was a brilliant atmosphere. It wasn't a great game, it was scrappy here and there but we nicked a goal before half time, had our chances second half and it was brilliant to win. The final itself was disappointing. I've never watched it back, I don't want to. Its a bad memory. I know we had a great chance with Byrne in the first half and some other half chances but to be fair, Jan Mølby was brilliant on the day and he sort of ran the game. He was probably the difference between the two sides, but obviously they had world class players on the day. Its a lonely place, Wembley when you get beat, that's for certain. It was gutting, I tried to put a brave face after the game but it hits you hard. Probably the only thing that was worse than that was getting relegated in one of my first years to what is now League One. That was probably the worst feeling I've ever had as a Sunderland player."
The 1986-87 season saw us slump to the then lowest point in our history, sliding into the third tier of English football. That side secured an instant return to the second tier... something we are acutely aware hasn't happened in our current slump. I asked Gordon if he sees much of a difference between the third tier football then and now and how the Sunderland teams compare.
"I think football has changed, everybody then played 4-4-2. I'm not going to say the football is much better now, because I don't think it is. I don't think the Sunderland team today would've beat our team then. I do think football has got better, everyone knows what you should and shouldn't do fitness wise and now they do things with sports scientists - the game has moved on there’s no doubt about it. However, nobody's going to outrun the players we had at the time, the likes of John Kay, Gary Bennet, Gary Owers , myself or Marco Gabbiadini. I do think our team was better but that's just my opinion. One or two (of the current side) might have got in but I don't think there's loads. Ross Stewart would be one that certainly would've been involved, there's one or two others. Certainly the wide lads on their day that we’ve got now, Clarke and Roberts could do things that could've hurt teams. Young Patterson has done great too, to be fair."
That being said, do you expect us to get the job done at the weekend?
"I think we can, definitely, 100%. I think they're on a high. Their heading in the right direction, unbeaten in God knows how many games. I think the manager's done a superb job. He did exactly what I thought he would do, which was to try and sort us out defensively. He's done that, mainly with three at the back. I always thought that was the best way we did defend, previously. He’s decided on more experienced players which has all worked out."
Gordon knows how beneficial older heads can be in a promotion push and believes taking young Callum Doyle out of the side was a big decision, but ultimately a correct one, that Alex Neil has made.
"I must admit, at the beginning of the season, I didn't think the lad was quite ready to be a centre half in League One. That was a thing I felt quite strongly about to be fair and I believe I've been proven right. Nothing against the kid, he's a good player, I think he can be a good player but he's not quite ready just yet, for me, physically. I said all along I'd like to see him as a holding midfielder with his great range of passing. He's great on the ball I just don't think he's strong or quick enough. He's got loads of great attributes and I hope he has a great career. He seems like a good lad. I think it was a big decision (to take him out of the side)."
Gordon, uncertain that we would go up under Johnson, has faith in Alex Neil.
"It seems like Neil has got everyone on side, which usually takes a bit of time. The lads are obviously working hard for him and pulling for him. I couldn't see us going up in January. Teams around us had games in hand, I couldn't see us getting promoted, we might have sneaked into the play-offs, but I couldn't see us getting promoted. We looked like conceding goals in every game, you cant do that if you want to get promoted"
If we don't win at the weekend, are you confident we would go up automatically under Alex Neil next season?
"Don't say that! Let's not talk about that just yet, let's just try and see what happens at the weekend. I'm not one for that, I'd just rather go up this season. I don't want another season in League One. Its crap football, its terrible. Lets just get up. I've got a good feeling about this weekend, so have a lot of people. Let's just do it and get up."
What do you think the score will be on Saturday ?
"3-1 us."
